Miscellaneous SIG Garb Notes

Updated 15 March 2006


The Great Poneva Debate
Fabric and Dyes
Fabrics and Threads

Collars: MHoll@aol.com (Predslava) - N.L. Pushkareva mentions round flat collars called "ozherelki", but she also mentions the 12th cent. collar fragment that indicates that other forms were worn - standing collars with a stiff core of birch-bark or leather covered with silk or other fine cloth and embroidered with gold or colored thread, that were also detachable.

The Great Poneva Debate:

From Jenn/Yana: Does she happen to mention the article which talks about the poneva? I really want/need to look at it. Apparently the above find Pushkareva talks about is simply a very small fragment of woolen plaid/check fabric (I believe) that is located below the waist. Either the archaeologists or the historians decided that this was a poneva because it superficially resembled the fabric used in the 19th cent garment. Sounds like an iffy hypothesis to me and I'd like to look closer at the findings, being the budding archaeologist and all. What I am saying is that this is the only pre-Petrine evidence we have of the poneva and it might not even be what we are hoping it is.

From Predslava: The name of the garment, for sure, is dubious. As to the shape, Pushkareva and others corroborate their conclusions with scenes from silver bracelets that they interpret as depicting a woman participating in a ritual, with her sleeves loose (they cover her hands and fall to the ground), and what appears to be some sort of coverting on her hips, open in front. Sreznevskii dates the word to as early as the XIc. and explains it as "a piece of cloth". As "cover" (i.e. blanket), he dates it to XIII c. As under garment, he dates it to XI century. As shroud, he dates it to XII c. As curtain, to XI c. I haven't found (yet) references specifically to "poneva" finds, but IIRC, you are right, and archeologists have correlated the scrap you mention with XIX century folk costume elements. That's why I quoted Pushkareva and why I don't bother with a poneva -- I'm not convinced the researchers are right, much less what shape/color/ornamentation was used.

Buttons: From Mordak on period Muscovite buttons: Bobs, either fabric, wood, stone, metal or bone. You can make them by using earring posts and a needle nosed pliers. That's how I make mine.

From Tasha: "Well, you could make "ribbon" out of strips of fabric, and as far as the buttons, you could do the stuffed button thing (there's a good tutorial with pictures at the Renaissance Tailor site http://www.vertetsable.com/periodstyle.htm) You can disguise the shanks of the buttons by wrapping them with thread. If you want to do knotted buttons, there is a really good tutorial on them at http://www.9v.com/crystal/kerij-e/docs/knots.htm Yes, they're Chinese, but it's the best I can come up with on short notice. :-) - Tasha

From "Kurt and Theresa Ryder" : Braided gold and silver threads. Tassels at the ends. Buttons are round and covered with cloth. Item 77 Button : silver gilt, almond-shaped, and composed of two spheres with a chased scale design... Item 78 Button: Silver gilt, egg shaped, etched design... Item 79 Button: Silver gilt, spherical, decorated with granulations set with rings... Item 80 Button: Solid silver, with multicolored enameled plated silver stars... Item 81 Button: Solid silver, openwork with filigree and granulation... Item 83 Button: Silver gilt, pear-shaped, filigree and painted enamel, red stone at the end... These are "shank" style buttons. All from History of Russian costume from the eleventh to the twentieth century : from the collections of the Arsenal Museum, Leningrad, Hermitage, Leningrad, Historical Museum, Moscow, Kremlin Museums, Moscow, Pavlovsk Museum : [catalogue / compiled by Alyoshina ... et al.].Published: New York : Metropolitan Museum of Art, ISBN: 0870991604 - Volkova-

See also Misc SIG Gem Notes

Silk: Verson Medvedinkov wrote:
> I'm getting ready to do some garb, and I would like to make nicer
> stuff in silk. But as I look at the types of modern silks, I have no
> clue which I should use. What type would work for say an over shirt
> for a rich person around Kiev (1242)? Also what suggestions for cheap
> fake silk? I've seen some what I guess might be decent "costume
> silk" or something of the like that was 100% polly. And only $2 a
> yard. But for all I know, it might be the a very bad choice to use.
> What about silk with patterns? what should I look
> for and avoid? >
> I would love to use some of the stuff
> here http://www.istok.net/home.php?cat=680
> but it is not cheap. And I have people who
> complain about me using the expensive 100% linen.
> - > Verson Medvedinkov

Baroness Anastasia (stasiwa@yahoo.com) replies:

I got a few pieces from this company, the green garb I did that is on the groups SIG files is one of the pieces.
From what I have seen of early period silk, it would seem that the plain, taffeta silk is a good plain albeit tight, tabby weave. A jacquard or woven silk is also period. Most of us use the noil, although it wasn't really used until the 16th century or so, (which is fine for me as I am 16th century Moscow) and of course the Dupioni because you can get it for 7.00 a yard in a myriad of colors, although I haven't seen any real examples in any of the millions of books on silk that I have seen. At least for early period. The heavy silk satin is period, but you will have to probably dye it, I have only really found it in creme or white, unless you find something on ebay or on an interesting website... regards, Baroness Anastasia

From Anya (jeniferknox@yahoo.com) - "I have examples of medieval (12th to 14th century) dupioni style silk, if anyone is interested. There are two kinds of silk: The first kind gives you those nice long unbroken fibers. They have to kill the silkworm to get this. The second kind is the silk you see with knobbly bits in it here and there (like dupioni), which is produced by allowing an escape hole for the worm. This makes shorter threads, but the worm lives. I cant imagine that the medieval industry would focus on making a kind of silk that would kill off its most precious commodity, and would reserve this kind of silk for the very richest. look in the museum cataloge of st. servaas in maastricht or in the catalogue for the berlin staatsmuseum, they have a special one just on their silks. if any of you speak dutch or german i can give you the isbn..." - Anya

From Maria Pienkneplotno (fabrix@mymail.emcyber.com): "A rich person in Kiev in 1242 would most likely have had some access to the silk from China, Turkistan, and couple other areas in Asia minor. This would be the brocades with satin grounds as well as other satins and long filament silks. The silk industries in western Europe were developing at this time but the Eastern trade route came up through Kiev for a couple hundred years before this and was well developed.

Anya, I'd love to see your samples and documentation of 'douppioni' style silk. I haven't seen any dig records or pictures that resemble modern douppioni and would like to add these to my research.
Shorter filaments of silk are used today, as they would have been in medieval times. Spun silk threads make the 'less crisp' taffetas, surahs and filler weft threads in failles and other ribbed silks. A Royal Museum of Ontario book "Silk Roads, China Ships" describes the process of using the waste silk, carded to make a floss, as padding for winter clothes as well as spinning it for a thread. Although they didn't have 'jacquards' (the invention of the jacquard loom being later than our period) they did have damasks which look very much like them.
Margarita, your information about the way they select the future silk worm breeders is what I've read too.
As to design, I would suggest you look for a 'Mongol', Chinese, or Turkish looking design if you're going to go with a patterned silk.
Please avoid polyester if at all possible....it burns like a torch if touched with flame, and makes a better sauna suit than garb. Or use it sparingly.
If you choose a 'cheaper' silk, then look for the douppioni silks that have the fewest slubs possible. Other silks that would be period besides taffeta and brocade are shantung, faille or grosgraine and possibly bengaline. These are 'repp' fabrics that have 'ribs' that go crosswise of the fabric. There are dig finds of this kind of textile in the Baltic region." - Maria Pienkneplotno (Polish fabric merchant ;)

From Anya (jeniferknox@yahoo.com) - "When I get some time I will get those pictures for you. More feasable silks for Kiev can be found in the book 'Von China nach Byzanz' which is the catalogue of the Bavarian national museum's exhibit of textile and leather finds on the northern part of the Black Sea coming from China and destined for Byzantium. Things in it include : a few caftans, WOMEN'S PANTS!!, a few dresses and cloaks, several hats and veils, childrens boots, some cool gloves, a few helmets with textile covers, tons of tablet weaving and silk pouches, leather bottles, arrow umm, the thing you keep your arrows in (its late, sorry). There's lots of silk in it. The time period is 10th century, but if you are just looking at silk, that should suit you fine.

Full Title: 'Von China Nach Byzanz: Frühmittelalterliche Seiden aus der Staatlichen Ermitage St. Petersburg'. It's published by the Bayerisches National Museum. You can buy it for about 10 euros over here, im sure Amazon has it? its full of color pictures, very good and accurate descriptions (textile weaves, dyestuffs used, etc) Definately worth looking for...
And for tons of silk pictures (mostly black and white) look at 'Seidenstoffe Des 5 -514 Jahrhunderts Im Berliner Kunstgewerbemuseum: Mittelalterliche Seidenstoffe' By Leonie von Wilckens
and for more silk, check out: 'Vestiduras Ricas: El Monasterio de las Huelgas Y Su Epoca 1170 - 1300' Not Slavic, but tons and tons of silks that would have been sent on the trade routes
And for the dupioni style silk: 'Die mittelalterlichen Textilien von St. Servatius in Maastricht', which has tons of silks from all over Europe, as well as some linen I'm not sure how available it is, as you can only get it at the church over here, and it's a bit pricy (60 euros but very worth it)
Anyhow, im sure ordering a ton of foreign books wasnt what you had in mind, but for those of you who want to go deeper into silk research, they really are worth having even if you dont speak german or spanish..." - Anya

From - "I use a lot of silk shantung which has the flow of nice silk and the durability of the satins. It comes in a huge range of colors and you can get it on sale for as low as $4.98 a yard sometimes. It is not a "stiff" silk like the dupioni and it washes and wears very nicely." - Ianuk

Brocade: From Maria Pienkneplotno: "Ok.... you hit my favorite subject. Brocade is period.... depending on the design in the fabric. Modern roses are "out". Balanced "ogee" (hourglass shapes fitted into each other) are good, but check on the design style/period of the pattern inside. Depending on the era.... and the country of origin... "vining" designs are good. "Pineapple, or pinecone, or pomegranate designs are good for 12-1400s, GENERALLY speaking. Stylized 5-petal "daisy" flowers are pretty much a standard as a fill-in design for several centuries in period...1200s on. Rampant, balanced and facing each other, lions, griffins, phoenix, etc are a find that will be coveted by everyone who knows anything about early period or Byzantine.
Country makes a difference too. Italy did certain things that influenced Europe... and ended up all over the place. The Moorish designs were different, the Chinese designs were different. There were influences felt from these at different periods.... depending on who was conquering , or trading with, whom at the time.
Some fabric (the "good" stuff) was worn for many decades, being willed from one person to another, or given as gifts, or 'made-over' for smaller bodies or smaller areas of clothing so to exclude the worn spots. Gold is good. In period there was 'golden-yellow dyed fiber', and 'woven with gold thread' and 'embroidered and/or couched gold thread on fabric'. This is very, VERY generalized. To really get an idea for the design on a piece of fabric you must pick up some textile patterns history books through interlibrary loan... or do a search on "used" books for the best price when stocking your library.
Check out some of the pictures of the era, as well as some pictures of the mid to late 1800s, Queen Victoria's reign. I'd say, if it doesn't look "Victorian", then chances are you can use it. If you want some book titles that have period pictures of fabric designs let me know and I'll post them. -Maria Pienkneplotno, Polish fabric merchant, Dragon's Magic/Linda Learn, Class Act Fabrics
Fabrics and Dyes:
Kathws Rusa: "3.5 oz/yd Commonly referred to as "handkerchief weight". Great for chemises.
5.2 oz/yd
5.5 oz/yd
5.9 oz/yd "Dress weight". It has enough drape for a cotehardie to look lovely. But still, the lighter colours are a little less than opaque.
7.4 oz/yd VERY coarse. I'm using it for field garb for my betrothed. It is heavy, and visibly coarse. It feels nice, but it looks very slubby. But you wouldn't see through it, that's for sure!
I would buy 3.5 oz for both veils and underdress. Unless a great portion of the underdress will be seen, then I would go for 5.5 oz. Both white, of course.
I wouldn't make hosen out of linen because it doesn't have enough give, even on the bias. But if I *had* to, I would make them out of 7.4 oz. But I would rather make them out of wool (wash it well in hot water and it won't itch).
I would probably use the 7.4 oz for pants and jackets and use the 5.5 oz. for shirts and such.
Colors could be pretty much any out there now except the neons. I have heard of people getting lime green and Barbie pink from natural dyes, so not everything would have been earth colors. I also heard that one of the unicorn tapestries (don't remember which one), that all the colors in it came from three dyes, madder (red), woad (blue) and something yellow. This was found out by chemical analyisis. Granted its English or French but still some dyes were common across several countries. I would give you a color chart that I saw on the web a while back but I can't find it yet." -Kathws Rusa

Yana responds to the following: [Colors could be pretty much any out there now except the neons... so not everything would have been earth colors.]

"I'm not sure about linen coming in all the above colors in SCA-period Russia, or for that matter, SCA-Europe. Linen is notoriously difficult to dye (even today some colors will rub off, because most dyes only cling to the surface of the fibers, this being one of the reasons linen resists staining so well). The only colors that I can remember linen being available in in Russia were raw (greyish), bleached (white), offwhite, yellow (I think), and grey-blue. Yes, all the above colors the quoted person mentioned were available, but I think that they only apply to wool, cotton, and silk. The materials of the Unicorn tapestry: Wool warp, wool, silk, silver, and gilt wefts. No linen.
I'm not trying to disprove the person above, I'm just trying to point out that _linen_ may not have been available in every color of the rainbow." --Yana

Soraya chimes in: "As for linen colors - I agree with Yana's list in the main, but the Scythian warrior garments from the "Scythian Gold" exhibit consist of armor over a linen shirt and pants of a faded warm berry pink color, probably originally dyed red. And since red seems to always be the right color for "Russians", I'm sure they would have spent a lot of effort trying to dye linen red." -Soraya

From: Kate Jones (kate@mail.browser.net)
> I apologize for being off-topic, but I'm curious about the colours of men's tunics
> in Eastern Slavic lands somewhere between the 8th and the 11th
> century. I know modern folklore tends to dress Russians in white tunics with
> red trim, but I was wondering about any other colours in that particular
> period.

White was a fairly popular color for men's tunics, and indeed the undertunic would normally have been white. Looking through a few of my books, though, I see illuminations of men wearing tunics that are red, yellow, dark and light blue, brown, sort of an off-pink, and green, with contrasting trim from the same group of colors.
While this may say more about the colors available for painting than what they actually used for clothing, I have seen a very similar color palette used for ecclesiastical embroideries, so these colors were both available and used for fabric items as well. I think they're probably all safe for clothing. Especially the red. Red is beautiful, after all... :) --Kat'ryna

From: Sarayya@aol.com - I believe linen bleaches out with sunlight, and you are not supposed to use chemical bleaches on it. It does not take natural dyes well, but the Scythian soldier (in "Scythian Gold" the catalog from the recent exhibit) under his armored shirt is wearing a long sleeved shirt and long pants in a warm raspberry colored linen, embroidered in wave motifs at all openings. (May have originally been red or the deep raspberry color also known as "Tyrian purple".)

Wool and silk take dyes very well, and were available.
What I want to know is why the underarm gusset in men's white shirts was RED, when red is such a fugitive color? And likely to be influenced by perspiration. --Soraya Evodia

From: MHoll@aol.com
> I tend to look at questions like this as follows - what would
> they have had around to dye the fabric with?

Vegetable dyes mostly, but also expensive cochineal (an insect giving a red dye), and dyed fabrics from China, Persia, Byzantium, wool from England, etc. The native dyes probably weren't much different from what was used in Northern Europe in general. --Predslava

From: MHoll@aol.com in reponse to the following: "> I seem to recall reading that red was a lucky color, viewed as protective..." She says:

It's not a bad theory. I haven't come across anything that says *red* is a protective color, but various shades of red certainly predominate in Russian period fashion. What I have read, is that *embroidery* at the openings of a garment (collar, hem, sleeves) is there to prevent evil spirits from entering the body. No period proof of that, though, IIRC.
Now in Russian folk weddings, pins or needles were placed at strategic locations in a bride's dress to protect her from evil spririts that could try to take possession of her at such a vulnerable time [between families, between states: neither her parents' child nor belonging to her family in-law; neither unmarried nor wife: it's a liminal state, so evil spirits can have a ball unless she's magically protected. Grooms don't seem to be so beset]. -Predslava.

From: Jenn/Yana (slavic@mailbag.com) in response to: ">I seem to recall reading that red was a lucky color, >viewed as protective, and that that's why it was >typically placed at the openings..." She says:

I think I know where you read that. It was in "Women's Work: the First 20,000 years: women, cloth, and society in early times." by E.J.W. Barber. She mentioned the red=protection from evil and that it was placed at the "entries" to the body for such purposes. Of course, I can't recall _where_ she found the information. --Yana

From Predslava: I found the following in "Kul'tura Drevnei Rusi", under "chemical trades" rather than clothing or weaving.
Mineral dyes:

Cinnabar, red;
Ochre, yellow;
umber, brown;
-- for painting, dying wood, leather, glass;
lead white;
mixed with egg yolks, or glue, or honey, or plain water, etc;
Fabric dyes: almost exclusively vegetal dyes, and rarely animal; imported madder or local woodruff (maybe Galium borealis? -- a swamp plant), woad (, Isatis tinctoria), St-John's Wort, etc; Red: mostly cocheneal: found locally in Belarus, Ukraine, the Crimea; Woad, Son-trava, cornflower, bilberries, etc -- blue; Buckthorn family, genista, birch leaves, wild apple, alder-- yellow; Oak bark, pear (bark?), onion peel -- brown; Potash and ashes as mordants.
I still haven't found what "son-trava" is. For plants I don't have in my dictionaries, I try to find the Latin name, and then look them up in an herbal or an encyclopedia. Electronic encyclopedias are great to look up the Latin name and/or alternate names that might not make a separate entry.

Fabrics and threads:

From: Diane Sawyer >What fabrics and threads are you planning on using? > I am using a 60/40% linen/cotton blend. I would like to try making one of pure linen, but finding some that fine, and at that price, is difficult at best. Answer: Try http://www.fabrics-store.com/ -- good prices, wide variety of colors and weights, and excellent customer service.
> As to thread, what would be best to use (from an authentic point of view)? Linen or silk? Other? - Answer: ...people will often sew wool using poly-cotton thread, which eventually saws right through the wool fibers. From an authenticity point of view, you're probably better off using linen thread. You can get a 260 yard spool of linen thread in off-white from Jas. Townsend & Son for $6 -- a little more expensive, but not as bad as I'd feared. http://www.jastown.com/bulk/th-325.htm
> Also, what type of thread would be used for the embroidery on the shirt? - Answer: Probably silk, and that *does* get expensive... I just spent $42 for 11 skeins and 3 half skeins of silk floss, and local needlework shops are hard to find. If you can find one that carries YLI silk floss, that's much less expensive, but not as widely carried. You could get away with using DMC cotton if expense is a concern. I would do the embroidery before assembling the shirt; makes it easier to put into a hoop.
Also, be sure to wash the floss before starting; I just had some blue DMC run on me and mess up a piece I was planning on displaying. Surprised the Hheckout of me; I expected the reds to run, but not the blues. You can use a type of horse soap called Orvus, which is also used by textile conservationists because it is gentle and rinses away cleanly. I have not used it, but needleworkers rave over it. I read about one that got a cola stain out of some counted cross-stitch with Orvus... sounds good to me! You can get it at tack stores ($13 for a 7.5 lb jar, which will last you forever) or quilt stores ($6 for an 8oz bottle -- half the price for 1/8 the amount!). Have I bored you all yet?" - Tasha

Jenn wrote: >> Also, what type of thread would be used for the embroidery on the shirt? >>Probably silk, and that *does* get expensive... I just spent $42 for 11 full >skeins and 3 half skeins of silk floss... Answer: There's also Eterna Mini-twist. About 70 cents a 6yd skein. Colors to match all DMC and Anchor colors. Available from some needlework shops...my not-so LNS doesn't carry it, but then, she doesn't carry *any* silk. Try www.eternasilk.com for a list of shops that carry it.

I have a full set of the Eterna stranded silk, which is probably closer to the silk used in period for embroidery, but it's a little trickier to work with than the minitwist, and probably *not* the thread to start doing embroidery with.
yes, it *looks* like the more expensive silk once embroidered. I'm doing a piece of German longstitch off of Master Wymarc's page, and if I didn't know which colors were the Eterna and which weren't, I wouldn't be able to tell -- the Madiera silk is a little thinner than the other silks, but it covers just fine once stitched. I'm using Splendor, Madiera, and Eterna stranded on this project....it's kind of a scrounge the stash for appropriate colors project." - jenn


From timbo@marcon.org All credit to Predslava, whom I much admire, but the garment is period for Russia. That comfortable garment was called the "stola" or paenula and was archaic in Byzantium when it was popular in Russia. It was basically a full circle cape about knee length with an off set neckhole and trim around the edges. In winter it was often wool or some other warm fabric, often furlined. In summer, the cape was of lighter material and the offset deeper so the front hem was just under the bustline instead of the belt line as in winter. Yes, the stola was used by the Church but so was the Ab, the ecclesiatical version of the dalmatica. I will find the cites tomorrow and post them. Fashionwise, Russia was in many ways similar to the Midwest as compared to the coasts, but with two more zeros added on the end. In addition, the severe weather made some garments popularity last much longer while other, more trendy areas of Byzantine influence were closer to current fashion.


From Alexey (posadnik@mail.ru) : "Actually, as svita (this very variant [refering to the svita shown in "Women's Clothing of Kievan Rus"]; some OP Ukrainian svitas for women look more like a bell/cone, expanding just from the armpits, without any body conscience silhouette) is a not-crossover version of a traditional nomad-type coat, I can right on the spot recommend you my favourite pattern, published at Red Kaganate site: http://www.geocities.com/kaganate/kaftan2.html being the reconstruction of the real 13-century piece http://www.geocities.com/kaganate/kaftan4.html It represents just a typical period East European coat fitted at the waist. I used it several times." - Alex

From Alexey (posadnik@mail.ru) replying to: "> Predslava's page has a pattern, although she calls it a Kievan tunic - http://hometown.aol.com/predslava/GiliarovskaiaPatterns.html#patterns

It's not the thing. It's a garment expanding just from the armpits, while a svita fits to the waist. Though, I met some pics of women's svitas (18-19-cent Ukraine) of this very shape - but they were not pulled-over garments, but just crossover coats, as kaftans and such. Bye, Alex."


From LiudmilaV@aol.com: "This is a quote from my recent notes for a Collegium class, based on Rabinovich in Drevniaia Odezhda Narodov Vostochnoi Evropy (Ancient Dress of Eastern Europeans):

"Since neither men nor women had pockets (men's clothing acquired detachable pockets, "kisheni," and sewn-on pockets, "zepi," by the end of the period), belts served to hold various objects, just like in the West. A belt box of precious metal, "kaptorga," or a leather pouch, "kalita" or "moshna," could serve as a purse. Kalita was not unlike purses worn on a belt or over the shoulder in Western Europe, except that it was highly ornamented. "

This refers to the late period, the XIIIth through the XVIIth centuries. I found no reference to fabric pouches. However, I still use hand-held fabric pouches with Russian-style embroidery, since I don't wear belts as a rule."


Sfandra asks in Feb 2006: "So, this question popped up on the SCAGarb list, and it got me wondering: Do we have any documentation for 'small clothes' aka underwear/underthings in period for Eastern Europe? I have seen some references to mens-wear of a 'braies' type in Rus clothing, but on a russian website where I could not read the references. Is there any documentation for underthings beyond the sorochka? For women, would it be reasonable to wear a roman style breast band?"--Sfandra Dmitrieva

Sofya la Rus responds: "I have never seen any information about garments to be worn under the rubakha/sorochka (or under the trousers for the men) in [early] period Rus. Upper class Rus wore at least a couple rubakhas/trousers at a time, so the inner linen garment could function as underwear. If you could post the URL of the russian website that seemed to be talking about "braies", those of us who know some Russian could take a look at the references for you. [See the translation mentioned below.] I suspect the "braies" were just the usual men's trousers. Given the debates about period undergarments in western Europe, I'm not optimistic about getting any good answers about Rus, since documentation is even more scanty. I don't know about the rest of Eastern Europe, of course. My personal belief is that nothing was worn under the rubakha/sorochka..." Sofya la Rus

Alexey Kiyaikin replies to: > A Merchant of 15th Century Novgorod http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/PartizanMan.html

"damn. This is not the source, just the assumption that those pants could be underpants, and the fact that in 19 century Russia the peasants' underpants and the "coffin wear" was made by about same pattern. The fact is that in the tradition the icon was made, the persons in the icon used to wear one pair of thin fabric pants just like those - so the picture shows just people who were stripped of their _shirts_, remaining in the pants. Anyway, no difference between underpants and upperpants (narrow ones, not the Sharovary) pattern never existed. Same pattern, same length, same fixation on the waist.
Thus, the main underwear idea of this very reconstruction: underpants must have been of the same pattern as the upperpants, just following the idea of wearing several tunics in cold wear in the Ancient Rome." - Alex.

Anya provides information about Moldavia, Feb 2006: "I finally posted them: they are both in the photo section [of the SIG Yahoo Group]... The folder 10th century finds... has the womens/mens under pants as well as a few other cool things like doll clothes, hose, and a sewn up veil. the folder moldavian... has the scan of the photo of the moldavian grave covering, with a depiction of the princess on it..." - anya [Scan shows short (?) linen (?) pants based on rectangular panels with triangular crotch insert - reminiscent of reconstruction from the 15th Cent. Novgorod Merchant site.]

From Nadya (hlaislinn@earthlink.net) March 2006: "I wrote an ebay seller and asked... about underwear, and this is what she had to say:

"About underwear, as I know from my great grand mother and grand mother they had no bra, no bends, just beautifull long embroidered blouses like dresses, it was like gawn for night time and underwear for day time, the same blouse for night and day. Our grannies called them " Spodne" or " Spidne"or "sorochka". All the names are correct. Even my granny always had one of her blouse always on her. Those blouses were made by my granny with hemp and all the accessories like runners and clothes were made of hemp or flax only in Kiev's region. We keep granny's blouses and runners as a memory. All the woman had underwear made of hemp or flax also. This underwear was like man's "sharovari" (pants) but they were twice shorter, little bit shorter knee lenth, this underwear was furled at the bottom, and tied with strings on the weist and little bit higher than knees. Every woman had this type of underwear..." " - Nadya


From Nadya (hlaislinn@earthlink.net): "I wrote an ebay seller... and this is what she had to say:
"Women even had their ancient make up, they rubbed the juice of red beets in their cheecks and lips and they hit the metal nails on the fire and curled the paces of their hair. They put ash from the fire on the hair to make the hair black if the hair was grey or light because the woman that has black hair was considered to be beautiful. This is what my late granny told to me." " - Nadya

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